It's an Inside Job

Leading Through Complexity: Why Strategy, Trust, and Story Matter Most with Marianne B Hagen

• Jason Birkevold Liem • Season 8 • Episode 1

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"I learned that leadership is about the strategic thinking, you know, more than sitting in an email box or asking questions. So I think the more you understand that leadership is about modelling and forming and shaping more than telling and asking more questions, the more I get people with me." - Marianne B Hagen

Discover how authentic leadership, transparency, and self-awareness are crucial for guiding teams through uncertainty and fostering resilient, people-first cultures in today's complex world. This episode offers practical strategies for effective leadership and personal well-being.

How do you stay decisive and authentic as a leader when the world around you keeps shifting, and what anchors you amidst constant change?

Key Takeaway Insights and Tools

  • Authentic Leadership as a Core Principle: Marianne emphasizes that leading with authenticity means aligning personal values with leadership actions, even when facing difficult decisions. It's about finding your own story and believing in it to truly inspire followers. (0:49:00)
  • The Power of Self-Awareness and Reflection: Good leaders prioritize self-awareness, seeking feedback and taking time for personal reflection (like Marianne's morning ritual of writing, reading, and contemplating gratitude). This practice helps identify blind spots and continuous learning. (5:58:00 & 11:27:00)
  • Transparency, Clear Vision, and Compelling Storytelling: To navigate change and complexity, organizations need transparent communication, a clear vision, and a compelling, true story that employees can buy into. This provides people with something concrete to hold onto amidst uncertainty. (18:40:00)
  • Fostering Psychological Safety and Accountability: True psychological safety is not about "holding hands," but creating an environment where individuals can frankly express disagreements and feedback without fear of negative consequences, coupled with a strong sense of accountability and active "employeeship." (20:14:00)

Bio

Marianne B. Hagen is the CEO of Randstad in Norway, bringing over 27 years of leadership experience across sales, consulting, and organizational development. She has a strong background in strategic competence management, workforce planning, employer branding, sales and recruitment. Her expertise spans leadership development, culture transformation, diversity and inclusion, and coaching.

Marianne has led numerous global and European transformation and digitalization projects, focusing on building agile, learning-oriented workplaces. She is passionate about fostering "employeeship"—encouraging individuals to take active ownership of their career growth—and aligning talent with business strategies.

Known for her ability to simplify complexity and drive engagement, Marianne collaborates closely with stakeholders and HR teams to design impactful learning and development initiatives. Her work focuses on leadership

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This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Hey, folks, welcome back to the show. I am glad you could join me for another Monday, the top of this week, where we will jump into another long-form conversation. And so today, we are going to continue that thread that we talk about quite often on this podcast is leadership. Leadership of oneself, but also leadership of others. And so leadership today is just about managing tasks. It's about guiding people through uncertainty while staying grounded, finding the foundation for yourself. And so in this episode, we're talking about what it really takes to lead in times of complexity and constant change. So let me ask you this. How do you stay decisive and authentic as a leader when the world around you keeps shifting? Well, today I'm joined by Marianne B. Hagen. She's the CEO of Ronsted Norway. With over 27 years of leadership experience across consulting, recruitment and organizational development, Well, Marien brings a deep expertise in workforce strategy, digital transformation, and building resilient people-first cultures. So in this conversation, we unpack a number of things. How to lead with authenticity while aligning business demands with human needs. We're also going to be talking about practical ways to foster trust, transparency, and psychological safety on your team. And why a leader's ability to reflect and reset is a critical part of long-term effectiveness. This and the most significant insight we discussed and the one I think will truly have an effect on your perspective on leadership leadership of others and leadership of yourself well that will come at the very end of the episode so without further ado let's slip into the stream and meet Mariana B Hagen. Maridiana welcome to the show thank you very much jason finally i got her i listened so many times to your podcast so i'm happy to be here yeah we've been trying to find a date and finally we landed on one so here we are could you kindly introduce who you are and briefly what you do, yes i'm marion hagen i'm from oslo uh but i lived abroad with my family for 12 years. I actually are the leader for randstad in norway and randstad is a global company we are actually the biggest one in hr having said that we're working a lot with digital you know it consultants health care and also a lot with recruitment and temp and taking over you know fabrics and so it's about people i i usually say if i should say quickly and that's very difficult it's work for solutions for a company uh so we're trying to mix business and people and and making good solutions for them that is flexible of course we've had the privilege of working together um cross-functionally uh with uh with the company uh running leadership workshops where mine was kind of focused on resilience and such, and yours are obviously on leadership. And that's where the confluence of our knowledge and our experience come together today, because I'd like to tap into your deep knowledge and experience and talk about leadership, many aspects of it. But right now, a lot of organizations are going through change and complexity, considering the world dynamics, foreign affairs, the geopolitics of everything, and how that influences organizations at many different levels. Perhaps we could speak about that. What are some of your opinions about how we should show up as leaders in complexity, in change, in challenges? You know, it's always difficult to talk about that because as you, I'm also a consultant. One of my backgrounds is I've been a leadership consultant for 25 years. And in addition, I am a leader. So sometimes it's difficult to be a consultant because then you can come with all the good advices. And then you suddenly are a leader and you understand it's a huge difference between theory and reality. Having said that, I, of course, have some beliefs that I think I bring with me. But it doesn't mean, Jason, that I always turn up like that or I'm not making mistakes because I do a lot. But I believe in authentic leadership. and I think that that's one of the core things for me that I need to accept the role, and I need to see if my personal fit puts into the role, and I also totally understand that it's the difference between being Marianne and being the leader the authority you have the power you have, that's not in me and that's also why I used to say that good leaders also balance with the work life, work life so I have a lot of my time outside job is as important as my job having said that my job is more than a job for me because I love my job but I'm not taking away that I also need something outside to have the balance if you say that I really believe in self-awareness. And I think that is one of the things that is actually building that we speak so much about today you know this kind of psychology safety trust and all of that and I think you can't have that if you're not willing to get feedback or look at yourself in the mirror or you know get this kind of real feedback from others and I also think that leadership is I don't think you can lead anything I think you need to be a fit for the company the values the drivers and that to actually believe in where you're going. If not, it will be very, very difficult to be standing in all of the changes that you will do and also the things that it requires that you actually do in a leader role. You've been through large scale transformations across borders and across industries. Yeah, very much. Sorry, when you find yourself in that complexity, in that uncertainty, what anchors you as a leader? First of all my values i'm really really anchored to my values and that comes from my family i think we were very value driven uh from my you know when i grew up and i i really know my values i totally understand that i i need to accept my role and there will be things that i don't agree on but the way i do it needs to be harmonizing with who i am and and the role of course but also my my values so one of my values is authentic for instance so i i need to do it authentic uh and i need to do the way that i can feel that i actually i'm not losing myself in my role i have accepted the role but i can't lose myself in it if you understand oh yeah let's go there because i think that's very very important because sometimes we can lose ourselves when there is so much coming at us so what is it how do you how does mariana define being authentic or what is authenticity for you for me i think it's not being a robot. It's not just doing things because people are my leader are telling me to do it so and it's not to be a bad day either yeah it's accepting the full role that i'm the leader but if i get the message and I think all leaders on a certain level have got you need to do this I really need to find my own story and I need to believe in it it might be that I don't agree but I really need to believe in the story because if I tell you a story Jason and I don't believe it myself I'm just bringing you a message and you won't follow me so leadership for me is about getting followers like like social media and and and you you will never follow me I can ask you a question why should I be led by you And I got that question several times and it's a book, you know, that question. I keep asking myself, why should people follow me? And I need to be able to answer that. And they should follow me because I'm authentic. I will always be authentic. Uh fair i will always do it in a respectful way hopefully but it doesn't mean that i that you will like what i do and it doesn't mean that you agree with what i do but i really would like to keep my self-respect as well that's also important so i think for me being authentic is not being a robot but either not being a buddy but being a leader and accepting like a parent role you know very easy for I have children it's very easy you know when I were small to give them everything I wanted but then I haven't taken my role so I think being a role model also means that you need to take. The role for full meaning also you need to to do something that's not always everyone agree with that and it's not a popular competition you know to being a leader it can't be but I also have heard that i didn't have empathy or i didn't have that you know in the situation even though i thought that so it could be perceptions as well jason but i think it's it's good to have an anchor in yourself and that you are trying to do that way but it doesn't mean that that i turn up like that or that you agree with me if you understand no i guess i'm i'm speaking for more general terms not every specific individual so when the road is unclear for yourself and for the organization the fog of uncertainty is there being able to tap into your values understanding what they truly mean to you at a very operational level that allows you to kind of find your way step by step through the the fog of uncertainty hopefully to you come out on the other side Right. But that is one of the core principles that anchors you through uncertainty. Yeah. What are other aspects that you draw from to anchor yourself to help an organization through MOVE? I need my family. You know, I'm a very afraid person. The only thing I'm not afraid of is losing, you know, the people that are very, very close to me. You know, the relation I have with my husband and also my children. I think that is core for me. So, of course, that's my anchor as well. And in addition, I need connections with people around me, not only at work. I'm talking about outside. And I'm also doing a lot of physical training. That's where I say physical, but it goes mentally for me. So I am a person that could look like I'm very extrovert, but I'm using a lot of time in the wood and running by myself where I really are reflecting. In additional, I have some very good habits for myself and, And I get up very early in the morning and I have this kind of self-reflection mentally for myself. You can call it mindfulness or reflection, but I'm both writing, reading and reflecting. And I'm also looking back and trying to be focused on what I'm grateful about. So when my children were small I ended the day sitting at their bed and saying. And after a while they were hoping me to come in quickly enough because I asked them what are you grateful about during this day so you know you're sleeping with a good mind instead of what I didn't do so you know it's a kind of a growth mindset instead of a fix so I'm really trying to look at everything i are grateful about because i really that gives me energy i'm very good at finding what i'm not good at so so it's just welcome to the human race myself so this is some small tip that i i'm doing for myself but i really know i've never been burned out actually even though i worked a lot so i think uh i found out i know exactly now when the border are where i need to stop when I need to go out and take, jogging or doing something else so I'm working a lot but I really have these kind of spots where I'm doing other things, One of the questions I hear you say when you get up early in the morning may be, what am I grateful for? That kind of focuses you more on the constructive or the positive side or the optimistic side. Things that you're appreciative of. Are there a couple of other questions that you tend to ask yourself in sort of a ritual or as a pattern that you get up in the morning? Oh, yeah. I have different questions depending on where I am and what I need. So I'm pretending I'm my own mentor or coach. No, I think I very often go back and reflecting about the situation that's happened and reflecting about maybe what I did good, but also what I could have done differently. And as a kind of learning approach, you know, if you go back to what's my engine is learning. So I'm not so afraid of doing mistakes, but I'm very afraid of doing the same mistakes and not learning. So I think leadership for me is a journey like everything else in life and I will never end up a place because then I'm dead so in my kind of vision is I'm on my way if I feel I'm not on the way on some some places whatever it is I will feel more drained so the energy of looking back at the situation and and reflecting about what I could have done and asking myself the same questions. Maybe taking all the perspective then the oldest perspective what are they thinking about and things like that and I do that in front of meetings as well I can role play with myself uh I asking 100 questions I'm not saying I having all of the answers but for me it helps me to look at different perspectives and sometimes I know about perspectives but I maybe can't take that role if I understand, but I'm fully aware of it. Yeah and that's that's sometimes uh takes extremely much time because i'm very analytic so i go back and forward all the time uh and sometimes it takes too much time but i really feel that the penny drops sometimes you know you really feel that you get some answers and that you understand oh sorry shit now i understand why jason was so angry for instance and now i can understand that perspective i don't understand why i didn't see that because i think we as leaders There sometimes are robots, even though we don't want to be that, and that we go in with kind of doing tasks and as a human in front of you and you just need to execute or do things. And then later on, shit, that was maybe not so respectful or so empathic that I wanted to be, if you understand. Yeah, thinking about what you've said, it underscores the importance, irregardless of how busy the world is coming at us as people, that the time for reflection is so important. I always connect it to sort of performance, whether it's physical, like running you're talking about, or lifting weights, or getting better at something. Half of performance is also recovery time. We could just replace the word recovery with reflection because it's through the reflection because what i also hear what you're saying mariana is that by asking yourself an assortment of different questions it can open your perspective up not only from moving from subjective to objective but it allows you to reframe a situation that may be in the heat of the moment you weren't able to do, but with hindsight, it allows you to see, okay, I could have done this differently. I did this well. I'm going to continue doing this and such. I could do more of or less of this next time. Yeah, I see so easily when you look back the blind spots you had in the situation. And sometimes I can't understand why I didn't see it at that time. But when you're very in an execution mode that a lot of leaders are, you have a tendency not to see it. And also, if you don't have the reflection time in front, you're not as good as a leader. So I totally agree. I think one of the best learnings I got, and I'm not saying I'm there yet, But I learned that the leadership is about the strategic thinking, you know, more than sitting in an email box or asking questions. So I think the more you understand that the leadership is about modeling and forming and shaping more than telling and asking more questions, the more I get people with me. And I've done so many mistakes so I think I I I think the most important thing is not I I fail fast I used to say you know in our culture and I mean that actually because I don't care if you don't if you fail but I fear if you don't try so I really like people I'm trying and and I really would like to use their playground let us say but so many people of us are sitting and not using the playground and waiting and adults to come and tell us but we're all kind of adults you know at work so we can definitely think by ourselves but it's required a certain level of leadership i think to have that culture in your experience what makes an organization not just to survive change but to grow through change. I really think transparency. I think openness, transparency, clear vision, clear goal. I think you can't get with you people today when we have so much information if you don't know exactly where you're going. So first of all, you need to know why you're doing it a clear vision. And I think a lot of leaders today say that they, or at least I've heard, say that they can't have a vision because it's changing so much, I think it's opposite. You really need to have a clear vision and a clear goal. It doesn't matter if you change it, but you need to know where you're going because there's so much uncertainty that people really need something to hold on. So I really think that you need to have a clear vision and that people understand why we're doing it and we're going there. And a compelling story that is true, the real story. And I think you know I think everyone can change through a transition and then as you said the resilience and the culture comes after that but I think we need to understand as leaders that if we want to have people with us most of the people is quite intelligent and very very good and they need the leaders need to be more transparent I understand you can't be transparent about everything but it's a few things you can be transparent about it's so much more less than And I think leaders think about, I really think they need to be transparent in decisions and telling much more, having a much more open dialogue, be frank, open. We spoke about trust. How does trust come? We spoke about trust between individuals, but also psychologists, safety in the groups. It's not about not telling. It's about being frank and open and clear, I think. I think it's also a misunderstanding of what psychology safety is. It's not holding hands. It's about having an environment where I can say, Jason, when you do that, you affect me in a very negative way. I just wanted you to know. And it's also that I'm not fair of the consequences by saying that to you. So I'm very open for feedback. And I'm also very open for a transparent and open culture. But it also needs to be in a kind of a good way. When you give feedback, it also means that you want to be part of the team. You know, we also have feedback, giving feedback, but they don't want to be part of the team or come with suggestions. So I think trust and accountability for me is together. I give you a lot of trust, Jason, but I also give you accountability to own some of those problems together with us. I think a lot of people is just sitting, waiting for the leaders to do something. And I don't want to have that kind of culture. I want to have a culture where we have different roles. And of course, we have different responsibilities. But we're all employees so this kind of active employeeship and ownership is something I really would like to have in the culture and I really think if you're going to have a culture, a good culture, you need to have that, you need to have people that. Buy-in on the story the real story buy-in on the change buy-in on the resilience buy-in on where we're going but it doesn't mean that they can't disagree with you of course like a family you disagree and then you agree where you're moving if you're five in a family you want to go to holiday and everyone wants to say where they're going of course at some place you need to decide where to go you can't go five places so it's a yeah but it's a little like i say i say that in the country we are a family we need to agree on where we're going and when we have agreed we need to be agreed to the decisions and help each other so I think it's a lot of things where you, where you can pick resilience but I think you need to be clear of the vision people need clear why. More than ever I think I also think. You need to lead with humility and have. Respect that it takes different times uh and i'm not saying it's talking about the year of course uh but that you also inform uh and communication i think is always you always get that you know in employee surveys uh but i think it needs to be more uh frequently like the culture like like you're doing your home you do to your wife or your husband you're you're actually correcting each other every day in some some way you are because you're talking so much so i think and then i also think you need to be open to to to say that oh sorry this is wrong we made the wrong decision we need to go there so it's a kind of a agility in the change it's not a fix you're not fixed when you're just on the change it's a never-ending story so what i hear is that culture is a huge company culture is a huge part of creating a resilient and agile organization and so what does agility mean for you beyond processes and organizational charts i mean how do you recognize it in people and teams i think agility for me is also a little bit about buying on the vision because if you buy on in on the vision you you will be flexible to to to make it happen so i think um of course i understand we need to have different roles of all of that but you know of the best team that I see in our organization is that we're working together. That we're taking, okay, do you need some help, Jason? I'm sitting over in an other apartment, you know, this kind of mobility in, in, in the culture where people are actually having an extra role, uh, behavior, where they know the role, but they have extra time to helping you. So I think what I think agility is, is, is. It's not only to be flexible in the way you are, but in flexible in meeting clients, in meeting each other, in meeting talents. You know, it's you're kind of I would like to use a Norwegian word, but I can't do it because it's English. But it's kind of, yeah, you you not go with the flow because you know where you're going. But you're not making problems out of small things. So so being just and it's a lot about the behavior, I would say. It's not about systems or structures i think culture is main purpose is to to support the strategy and if you understand that in the behavior you will be flexible and you don't need to go and ask your leader so if you are flexible you're taking decisions by yourself because you have the shoes on and that's what i like and and you and and you know that's true in the situation i will never never ask you why you did that because i think you have the shoes son you decide that that's that's ownership for me and and flexibility agility is about ownership well you take ownership of the vision and you do what's necessary in the situation and i trust you i think what you said there just a riff on what you said there mariana for me one of the key signatures of a mature mindset irregardless of age is the ability to accept responsibility the ability to accept accountability. When something goes sideways, you take responsibility. Because for me, it's always been something that kind of pushes my buttons when people don't own up to a mistake, when people shift it to someone else. And another one for me is conscientiousness, the ability to think about others, the ability to fulfill promises, the ability to come through different things. And for me, these two, I'm just choosing these two character traits of conscientiousness and accountability, for me, they are signs of a mature mindset. Again, I say this irregardless of age. And those are the kind of people I... I, I, I, they're like magnets for me, right? I think they're so solid. I agree. I agree. We had a leadership meeting yesterday and, and we did this, some exercises. What is, what you bring to the table and what's irritating you. And I think all of us in the leadership team said that we're irritating when people are, you know, not taking the responsibility or the employee ship or the ownership they actually have got. Just waiting for adults to come. So so yeah because then then you're not agile or flexible or or owning and i think, it's like i say to all my people it's it's uh you need to think like it's your own company it's your own it's not your mastercard it's the company's mastercard do do the things the way you you would have done yourself and i think the ownership there like you talk about that that is the best employees you know you take the best advices and you take take do whatever you want as long as you are part of this organization for full and then I trust you yes definitely I I completely concur with you so I think there we have an overlap I mean you've worked globally I'm just curious maybe this is a very too open of a questions but do you notice there are cultural differences in how resilience or adaptability show up in the workplace. I can answer that it's a huge, huge culture differences. I worked in a lot of different countries, and I would also say cultures, because it could be different cultures in the same country. So I think it's more different than we think. And we have a tendency, you know, the global companies that I work for, and also a lot of others have a tendency to think you can make a blueprint and then just do exactly the same you know so one size fits all i don't believe in that one size fits one uh having said that i i also think it's a lot of subcultures in the same company so subculture could be very good if they are supporting a real culture so but resilience and, what did you say how that is affecting culture is affecting resilience yeah but i was wondering Have you noticed cultural differences of how resilience and adaptability show up in the workplace, in the office? I think if I, I'm not sure, I don't have any science on this, but I really think that the Scandinavian or the Nordic culture has more of this real trust, if I can say that, or psychology safety in the culture. And I don't think that's only in the workplace. I think that's the culture and the society and all the things that we live in. So we believe in things in a different way. And I think that is the foundation, you know, for getting resilience. So by just answering that, I think we have a more resilience culture in the Scandinavian. Having said that, it's, of course, very different from European countries. But I also have worked, you know, a lot with U.S. And other geographics. And normally, if I just say it's very bold, but it's a little bit black and white, they're more afraid of speaking up, you know. They're also more afraid of losing their job. The unemployment rate is maybe higher. And the hierarchy is much more in the culture. So i think if i should measure the resilience i'm not sure sure why i what i should have measured because uh they come to job not because they want maybe because they need money so it's it's it's just different what are we actually measuring i think the real resilience as i would like to say and the real that people have it good and and comes from authentic leadership and and that you You can be yourself at work. You're still at work, but you understand you can fulfill a role. You can get career advancement. You can feel that. You can say what you want and not getting, you know. Kick back on that uh but um so i think the scandinavian countries are that but i don't have a kind of science showing that i think now i was asking more just from your experience i'm it's i'm not asking for statistics because for me i again i agree with what you're saying being in living in scandinavia for the last two plus decades i i agree there is something dynamic about this culture. Of course, it's not perfect. I'm not saying that. But I've been in many different cultures. And the Scandinavian culture is one that has appealed to me on so many different levels. You know, the secularism, the values, the humanism, all of these kind of things really sit well with me. And sometimes you can see cultural clashes when people can't sort of adapt to the Nordics. And, you know, to each his own. But from my perspective as a canadian and that's also as a brit moving to to scandinavia as being an eye opener for me as to what truly resonates and really which really sits deep within me right and i i've adopted that wholeheartedly because as a canadian i'm not expecting the nordics to adapt to me i adapted the nordics right i adapted this culture and i i want to interweave and be be part of that and i believe i have done that to some extent and i agree with you for me there is a resilience in the when you think about living up in the north and it's gray and it's cold and it's dark half of the year you have to have some sort of mental fortitude to get through it right so i'm very very curiously now what is the one thing that you have adapted that was very challenging for you by living here in in norway. I think it's, it was to come into contact with Norwegians. Like when I lived in the States, I lived in the States for two years. It was so easy to meet people and it flowed and such. But what I find here is that once you've made a Nordic friend, once you've come into the culture, they are friendships for life. Again, this is just my own experience. There are true, deep, sincere friendships that I know that to the end of my days, they will be friends, per se. It takes time to come into the culture. But like anything, for me, it's an investment of time and effort and learning the language and learning the culture and adapting to that culture. I don't expect to be specially treated. You know, I am one individual and, you know, Norway's opened up its arms and it's up to me to adapt to that, to think and to speak and to be part of that culture. Right. And I think by coming, by investing in that, I see that, I mean, I don't have a thousand Norwegian friends. I have a handful of close Norwegian friends that I know, I'm very tight with them. They're deep, deep friends. Um genuine transformative friendships and i would i wouldn't give it up for anything so for me that's that was the hardest thing was coming into the culture but that's on me i need to invest time to come into this culture right now it's interesting because uh i i have actually the same experience but opposite because i think and also had a lot of people that i know that that moved to Norway that we are very hard to get in a way where, you know, it takes time and to open up and things like that. But when you first open up and you come in with the heart, you get friends for life, as you say. But I think I've also lived, you know, in the U.S. and other places. And the interesting part is so easy to connect with people. And I was thinking a lot about talking to another scientist about that. And she said that it's not so difficult to understand because in the U.S., for instance, they have moved after jobs. They had to make friends, you know, they're moving every second, every third years. Historically, I'm not talking exactly right now. And I think that makes sense because then the networking that we talk about that we think is maybe false or not right, it is. It's not false for them, it's surviving. Is the way they had to be you know to connect to people and to get jobs and move to a new place and things like that and it makes sense you know in norway we're living where we are working, we don't want to take the bike and we want to walk and you're all of that so so i i just think that is it makes sense but the one thing i wanted to say was that what i actually have uh thought about is that it's much more fair in other in other countries than in Norway. Fear of losing the jobs, of course that happened in Norway as well, but you have a social system, fear of speaking up, fear of saying exactly what you want to say, fear of and much more you know it's much more layers in in leadership, fear of the leader, Is it also another leadership style? In the first half of my conversation with Mariana, we explored what it really means to lead through complexity. As CEO of Randstad, Norway, Mariana has firsthand experience navigating the pressures of organizational transformation in an unpredictable geopolitical climate. What stood out right away was her focus on flexibility, not just adapting to change, but actively shaping it by balancing business needs with people-centered leadership. Mariana emphasized that authentic leadership starts with self-awareness and alignment with your values. She shared how her daily reflection, practicing gratitude, and learning from setbacks, well, how it keeps her grounded during turbulent times. Rather than leading through authority alone, she stressed the importance of modeling leadership, living the vows you want others to follow. We also dove into the role of trust in building resilient organizations. For Mariana, creating a culture where people feel safe to speak up and taking initiative, well, it's essential. She highlighted the value of transparency, clear communication, and fostering psychological safely, especially in Scandinavian work cultures where these traits are often most deeply embedded. We also touched on life in Norway. We reflected on how the cultural context of stability, fairness, and humanism shapes both work-life balance and long-term personal relationships. Now, while it can take, Time to build deep friendships here. The bonds tend to be stronger, more enduring, much like the foundations of sustainable leadership. Well, let's slip back into the stream with part two of my fascinating conversation with Mariana B. Haagen. When I worked in London, no one went home before I went home. And when I understood that, I was thinking, oh, shit, I can sit home because they're not going home. You know and and also when you understand that uh they come before you uh and they cc everyone and or every time you i said i don't want to be cc everything i get 500 emails but you're not to know i don't need to know i trust you so it's huge is that resilience it's a question back to you i don't think that's resilience i think that's actually quite a fragile brittle riddle culture because again i only speak from my perspective but i don't think there is deep trust there i i think there's this people are afraid to be caught out people afraid not to be shown not doing their work right it's like measuring someone clocking how many hours instead of you know as the results of their work right and so for me i i think that's a very fragile culture Right. I mean, if I feel I got to show up before the boss shows up and I can't leave before he or she leaves, if I feel I at eight o'clock, I have to be 8 p.m. Or 10 p.m. I have to constantly be available or have to show on whatever teams that, oh, he's he's sitting at his computer. I think it's a culture or organization that needs more trust, that needs a sense of ownership. And again, as you said, you know, the leaders are the ones who can show the, what we want in the culture because culture it is influenced by all aspects but i think the greatest cultural shift or influence comes from the top down as parents the children and i'm not saying employees are children but there is a hierarchy regardless if it's a flat organization what they do on top is going to dictate and resonate as ripples through a pond of how the organization is going to work i think it comes back to the top of this conversation again these These are just my opinions, but you talked about self-awareness. If a leadership team, the management team, the executive team is conscious and cognizant of how they are communicating, how they're building trust, psychological safety, not about holding hands, everyone's going to be safe, but it's about having hard conversations, right? It's about holding people accountable about ownership. Dare to have an open conflict i think and things that's what i worked a lot with team uh development as well and leadership and you need to dare to have the conflicts also to have accountability and and results and i think uh it's it's a kind of building blocks if you don't have the trust you don't have dare to have the conflicts uh and i think that's that's why i think maybe if we go back to resilience and and the other culture or in norway culture when you have the trust and i I don't think everyone in Norway feels that as well, of course. But when you've got the trust in the individuals and also in the team, psychology, safety, you dare to say what you mean and you dare to have the conflicts, meaning that you get more of the accountability and ownership and things like that. I don't think you can have the results if you don't have the trust as a foundation there. At least you could have more results then or better yeah i just i just want to qualify our conversations about we're talking about the general population the general culture we're not talking about specific things because i mean anyone can nitpick and things anyone can cherry pick but i think what we're talking about mariana is sort of a more general conversation a general concept that is found in sort of the nordics per se um if we could just shift you were talking about ownership before and you have your passion about employeeship as you've called it how do you cultivate that sense of ownership in people who may not see it themselves as leaders how do you how do you infuse that ownership that buy-in into a culture of course i need to walk to talk, and of course i need to have a clear vision and why it's important but i think. Employeeship and ownership is extremely important for me because i think if not you need to have 100 leaders on 200 people and it doesn't give any meaning i also don't think it gives it goes back to what i believe in i i believe in that people can learn and i believe in that people having it better if they get a little bit stretch goals not everyone but a lot of people would like to have stretch they would like to feel uh that they are succeeding and doing things they haven't done before so for me it's about um to to actually try to foster a culture where the employees take initiatives and and think like co-owners like like i used to said so that uh you can empower them and also get out autonomy, you know, creative in each of the employees. And I think you need to be, to get out, I think you need, I'm of course simplifying, Jason, but I think you need to be very transparent and. So that people can trust you in decision and things like that also. And just say if you can't, of course. But I also think you need to be giving recognition and accountability. And like I said, trust and accountability goes hand in hand for me. But of course, you need to, we're talking about not one size fits all here as well. People are different. But I think in the culture, I would like to make a culture where it's okay to fail. Where we are looking at what we are achieving more than what we did as mistakes. And if we did mistakes, let's sit down and learn. So for me, it's not about mistakes, it's about learning. So a kind of a learning environment will also foster for me a culture of creativity, where you dare to go out of your normal role, common suggestions, ideas. But I also think it's modeling from the leaders. I don't think you get that, you know, you can't start from the bottom if it's not happening on the top either. So I think it's both ways. And I think it's depending on where you're coming from. If it's not normal there, you need to teach. You need to feel that it's safe. You need to start with small wins and show them and encourage them. And I ask a lot of questions. That could be very, very sometimes exhausting. But I used to say, if you come to me with something, if I wasn't here, what would you have done? Just to get back again what you're taking as decision it doesn't mean that i don't want to, be part of the team but i don't need to control everything i think you need to understand when you ask a leader that's why i'm trying to get the matrix of authority down so that the people that has the shoes on knows exactly more than me to take the decision so i'm also asking a lot of questions backs because in the beginning when you take over as a leader you get a lot of questions and saying, why are you asking me? For instance, I get a question, could I buy a smoothie to my team? And this is real. Why are you asking me about that? Of course, can I do that? And then they're happy. So it's so sweet, isn't it? But the point is that don't ask me about that. You're a grown-up. If you decide that's okay, of course it's okay. So of course you have different decisions to take, but I think you need to show trust. And sometimes they do mistakes and then say, okay, what could we do better? And then reflecting again, self-awareness, learning. What do you think about that? If you're just putting the numbers then, for instance, in front of you and say, this is your client meetings this week, what do you think? I don't need to say so much. I have a belief that most of the people know exactly where they are, either in a football team or in a class, in a mat or whatever. People know exactly where they are. You don't need other adults to tell them. So my point is more, where are you? How are you measuring yourself? What do you need from me to support you? So I think I need to be frank if they ask me, but I don't need to judge a lot of people because they definitely know where they are themselves. Yeah, I think it comes back to that term that we use, managing expectations. It's about clearly speaking to the rules of engagement. What is expected? But it's also to ask the employees. is ask people across the organization, what are your expectations? Of course, not everything is going to float. Some ideas are going to sink. But the idea is to have a conversation to populate the map or the culture of the organization and to understand that, okay, these are the general rules. Like Jason can. I don't have to go to Mariana to ask, can I buy smoothies or apple pie for my team? Go ahead do it right of course 50 million dollars can i can we buy a helicopter for our team well maybe yeah but i think the interesting part here is yeah maybe this question why do you ask me. Because if they say, because I'm not sure if I could, and it's a smoothie, I said, why are you not? Because I think this expectation part of the interview is, and they could have had another leader than me before, but they were not allowed. So that's where we need to get to the bottom. Why are you asking the question? Why are you actually uncertain? Are you uncertain and you get any kind of fee-fee? Or is it that you just want to, because if it's just to please me, you don't need you know so if if you ask a lot of questions as leader i think that's that's one of the thing i actually would say that could build up trust as well not calming with all the answers but asking them much more than we normally as leaders do because we have a tendency as leaders to being we come from experts a lot of us leaders and a lot of leaders that become leaders like to take care of people and and decide and do like that but i think it's a new era now it's a new uh culture where we need to ask more questions and and have co-workers and and followers and people that really can think by themselves it doesn't mean that you shouldn't lead i think everyone needs a leader everyone needs someone is pointing you know with a hand uh but you're still part of a team you're still working together and and the influence the employees has is is It should be bigger most of the times, I would say. It sounds like a clear distinction between managing people and empowering them in that sense, what you're talking about. I was wondering, what's one thing leaders unintentionally do that might discourage ownership on their teams? Um so i mean what they do that might could destroy like they're not conscious of it like they they do something and it's not meant to discourage but unintentionally by accident it does i can tell what i do and i know i got a lot of feedback i have a tendency to sometimes be very. I'm very energetic so then i talk too much and i take too much place and i have too much suggestions myself of course that is then you don't talk so so that's why i learned to ask more questions than to actually come with answers myself so that's the one thing and of course i'm aware of it it's part of me so i need to hold myself back sometimes of course i also think that leaders um we need to how does i treat each other as equally because you have different roles but So, of course, we are as smart as we are. We have Gauss-Kurve everywhere and we are smart everyone. And also quite interesting to ask for different perspectives. So asking for different perspectives, asking for Jason, I've thought about this. Could you give me some advice from your perspectives if I'm a leader? What do you see that I don't see? Because you're sitting more with employees. So asking buy-ins, asking them to revisit maybe or look at your PowerPoint before a town hall meeting or getting them involved in being part of where we're going, but in different ways. I also would say that leaders, how do you say that? I don't think they always ask for feedback in the correct way because we have a tendency to say, okay, give me feedback then, Jason. That's kind of a dangerous question. What should you say? What am I conscious of and what am I not? So I think if leader could make it more easy to say, i'm actually working with listening jason listening actively and asking more questions. In the next month could you please give me feedback on that it's much more easy for you to give me feedback you know and then you start and maybe open up and and you're having the blind spots because then then then you encourage people but if i say could you give me feedback and you say something and never that was a blind spot, I may be like oh my god and then you saw my reaction and you think I can't do this anymore because I saw your reaction so I think you may need to make it easy to get feedback not just accept or think that people should give you that without actually being good in taking it and then when you got the feedback you need to do it something with it as well you know. Yeah, so what I hear you're saying is that to create better ownership and accountability in a culture, it is to encourage people. And through encouraging people, it's not speaking so much, but asking questions, getting them to reflect, getting them to answer up. It's you listening and trying to dive deeper into what they're saying. But it's also setting the agenda that not all ideas float. Some will sink but let's let's speak about let's populate the ecosystem here with different ideas let's have divergent thinking per se before we have convergent thinking and it's through that encouragement and listening and motivating people to speak up that you you do create a sense of psychological safety people feel that they can fail they can say they can speak their mind they They can question decisions, not after the decision's been made, because then I agree with you earlier, we've got alignment. We've agreed this movement, but there is a time for discussion. And it's also that the leader's not already made the decision, but creating up the false pretense. Let's have a discussion. But he or she's already decided in their head what they're doing. That's the worst. Yeah. I mean, talk about killing transparency and credibility in one fell swoop. But what I hear is that ownership is getting people to speak up, to talk about it, where they're not afraid, where you can discover, but you can still have hard conversations. But it's through that over time by creating a track record, the sense of ownership, accountability and taking responsibility for successes or failures or follow ups or whatever. Flourishes over time but it's an investment it's about sowing the seed so you can yeah it's a huge investment i think also a lot of leaders forget that they have the responsibility for the structure as well because a lot of organizations are not structured for giving feedback or structured for. Having questions or discussions so i think these arenas is very important and also like Like you said, when is it allowed to come with it? Because if things are already decided, U.S. leaders, of course, say that. So it's not getting this around all over again. It's actually decided from someone maybe over you or anything. So I think the leaders has a responsibility to have a structured way of doing this, in addition to making arenas where the employees feel safe. And they know today is a discussion meeting. We will not, you know, take any decisions we will discuss and we will come with proof and comes. And this is the kind of meeting, because I also think we need to help employees to be good and understanding when we can do it and when we cannot do it. And that goes for all of us. And of course, and leaders need to raise their hand and say when they're done and mistakes. And it's not it shouldn't be so um difficult to to change the decision if it's wrong, you know it doesn't matter if it's wrong it's wrong okay sorry yeah exactly yeah but really it's sorry we did i took a wrong decisions my fault but but i think it's also it's not about a right or wrong decision it's about moving in the right direction as as quick as possible you know, for the organization. So I also think a lot of leaders has too much... Facade how do you actually say that facade yeah yeah and that they are so afraid of losing that mask that they won't raise their hand and say they did a mistake i don't care about that actually i care about we winning and care about us going in the right direction and and and i think that is important i really think that you couldn't have a facade because then it's very very difficult to do mistakes and you're not walking the talk at all for the company now again someone who is trying to put up a front who's trying to show strength all the time i mean that in itself is i think that's fatal in the sense of fragility right it's you're easily broken and i think there's something to say to humility the humility that i still learn the humility that i still make mistakes the humility that i have not reached the the perfection of what a human being is and that there's constant growth from cradle to grave there's always going to be something i could be better at and improve and you know constantly adapt and evolve to situations and i think that's what humility speaks to yeah i agree and i think it's um it also makes it easier for people if. We are in the same boat and and we have we are all employees and and it will make it easier for them uh you know i also study a little bit about uh mistakes and like amy ederson not not not that i'm her but i also done the same in my own team you know when you have a very good team like amy ederson found by her science that they report most wrong things you know in the hospital the size she did i had the same when i have a team that is so so good you know we have been part of that we are reporting wrong things every time all the time because we are not afraid of it so it's quite interesting to see how very good teams are not afraid and how they actually have a speed that is much more moving the organization than a team with afraid of doing mistakes and i work with a number of leaders that they find that the level they sit at, and we hear this quite often, it's very lonely and that some of the thoughts and the ruminations and the overthinking and what goes through their head, they find it very hard to sometimes speak to even trusted colleagues because maybe they're part of the same culture and that becomes this co-dependency or co-rumination. I was wondering about yourself, Mariana, when you feel things are slowing down or getting stuck... Who do you turn to, to kick around ideas, to get fresh perspectives, to find a new way through the storm? It's a little bit of what I spoke about earlier regarding connections, because I don't feel lonely at work. I don't feel lonely at home. I think it's much about that I don't feel lonely with myself. I like to be by myself as well. But I always had a mentor or a coach. And of course there have been some period but I haven't had it I love that I love to talk with people that is not inside the organization to get perspectives and I think that is wise I think everyone should have a coach or a mentor because that person you're going and speaking to doesn't need to they can be very frank they can speak without you know anything and they can be open And so it's not only coaching for me. I also ask for advices. That's why I say I'm mentoring, you know, where you have an adult conversation and you go back and forward and you can trust that person. I also actually use my grown up children because they are younger than me, of course, and they have a different perspective. I never talks about what is happening in work. That's not that, but how they would look at the situation in the 20s as they are. And I also have a lot of friends but I never I'm very I'm very actually quite good in not talking about situations at work home in that way I can talk about how I feel but I really think that you should be very when you have a CEO role at me I shouldn't take you know situation with me home I should take them to a coach or a mentor I think that's really that's at least very important for me because you never know who knows anyone. So I'm very, I really would like to be confidential and things like that. It's very important for me and that people can trust me. But I can talk about how I feel at home, you know, by standing in a difficult conversations or things like that, but that's something else. But again, I turn to connections. I turn to people to get advices. And I also have this, as I said earlier, this reflection time with myself. But it still comes back to resilience and loneliness and all of that, I still think it's much about values, And having a grounded place for yourself. And for me, self-reflection and also the self-respect is very important. Even though I would lose my job because I did something, maybe it could happen. You never know. Or I didn't do something, but I lost it. My life doesn't fall apart. And it could maybe sound silly because my job is extremely important for me. and it's much more than a job. But it's not me. It's not only me. I have a lot of other parts of my life. So I really think that the best leaders actually has a good life out of job. And I think that makes them better in decisions at work because it's not my... I'm not only at work. I'm a married person. I'm a mother. I'm a wife. I'm a friend. And I'm a daughter, you know, much more than that. But I think I integrate myself in the job. But I wouldn't fall apart if I lost my job, if you understand. So I think it's also to have, I think that's important, actually, to be a good leader. You need to have some places where you get energy that is not only from work. And that means more for me. You know, the most important will always be my family, whatever happens. That's just how it is. It sounds your resilience comes from a nuanced life where, you know, CEO or professional, working professional is just one role of a multitude, right? And so if one falls away, you know, you have the nuanced life to fall back on the different roles or the different labels or whatever you want to call it. It's my identity. That's what I said. It's part of my identity. And I wouldn't be very hurt or sad because I'm a feeling person, but I'm not falling apart, if you understand. Mariana, we are coming close to the end of our conversation. Are there any last thoughts you would like to do with our listeners today? I would like to ask you a question. Shoot. Yeah, shoot. So what is the, you're speaking a lot to leaders like myself and others, of course. What is the trend that you can see or pattern that the leaders has that you're thinking, what is actually, what is the resilience if you just say something that you hear from different people, even though they say different things what is it from your perspective kind of a common denominator yeah for me i think i think there's a number of things but the one thing that rises to my mind is the ability to be self-reflective i think it's their ability to lead themselves i think it's not to kid themselves that it's all about positive thinking i think we all face storms and sometimes we can't escape the storm and we have to go through it i think it's the ability for them to understand what is the narrative that their brain that organ is telling them because it's based as we all know we hear time and time again on this negative bias the survival mindset and it's it has positive intent but sometimes it turns a paper tiger into a tiger And I think the leader, regardless of they're male or female. Regardless of age, if they have the ability to be, everyone has the ability, but if they are capable and are cognizant to the narrative that is running through their minds, where they can differentiate the mind from the brain and the mind sits back and sort of not passively observes what the narrative is, collects the narrative, but they can change the narrative. I think also for me. What I also found is that being humble, being vulnerable, and being accountable are also three traits that, though we can tease them apart, I think they are part of the same element of conscientiousness. And I think the ability for people to fall back and say, look, I don't know everything, that they can fall back and they have their community, they have their tribe, they have their council in which they can kick around ideas. And they're not afraid to kick around those ideas. I think those are the common denominators. I mean, there are many others. I could probably write a book about this. based on my own trials and tribulations you know last couple of years right talking to a lot of leaders but but what is what is inherent and what can be learned you know what can't be learned what can't be on the spot now but i i know you know a lot about the brain as well personally i think everything can be learned when it comes to everything we've talked about today i think all of it can be learned i think you just need the discipline and the dedication and the see that as an investment and not a cost right because a lot of us want to learn something but i think we're not willing to learn it i think it's moving want to will everything we've spoken about all the traits all the values all the principles we've talked about today mariana and that you've been so generous and sharing your own experience i think all of this can be learned but sometimes it's like. What's the analogy? It's like a golf. If you want to learn golf, anyone can swing a golf club, but why not go to the golf pro, invest the money. It's not a cost and just learn the proper patterns and techniques and habits. And then all of a sudden you're good to go. And then it's just practicing that. Right. And so I think like you're learning a martial arts, a karate or hip kiddo or taekwondo or whatever. You go to the dojo, you learn from the experts, the black belts, right? I think it's with anything else it's to be humble enough to understand that you know what i don't know this i'm just gonna go out and find that expert i'm gonna find that teacher that professor or what have you then you need to have the time or put aside the time as we talk about training, because i think that's what leaders don't do they don't don't use the time or very often don't take time for train i agree yeah and i think it's a shift between something i may have already said between seeing something as a cost and seeing something as an investment, seeing that there is a return on that investment, that there is dividends, right? And again, it comes back to what you've said so eloquently. It's that growth mindset is that you're curious, you learned, you ask yourself questions. Every morning you get up and reflect. When your kids were little, you would go to their bedside just before they had shut eye and catch some Z's. You'd say, what are you grateful for today? And that shifts the mindset and you do that over and over and over and, I'm sure your adult kids are very socially, emotionally intelligent. They are emotionally resilient, you know? I don't know. I can't say. No, no, but when you ask those kind of questions. But that was the intention. Yeah, yeah. I don't say this to compliment you. I say this as an observation. Based upon the experience of all the people I've worked over the years in different clinical or corporate settings. When I hear that and you do eventually meet their kids, their adult kids or whatever, you can just see, talk about it. Remember when we were talking about that mature mindset, regardless of age, you just hear that person articulate and explain their perspective on something. It's like, okay, yeah, they're far ahead of most people, right? Just the way they take ownership and responsibility and there's there's this sense of humbleness to learn that they don't know everything right and it just comes off completely comes off as sincere and genuine it's no facade it's not some sort of false modesty right hopefully you have modeling some some part of that i just want to say one thing more jason before we stop and and and that that came to my mind we're talking now because you talked about dedication and things like that i think the one thing i would like to say uh to leaders is that the habits is the most important thing because i think a lot of leaders are putting too much into those summer speech or you know the christmas party or and i'm not saying that's not important jason but i think it's every day like the children and and the people you're around you it's the habits is every is the thing you do every day that is most important thing so i think you need to be the leader every day not not just turning up with a good speech or a tunnel meeting so i think. Yeah, what does the people talk about when you're leaving the room? You know, what is actually the brand? And I think that is what goes to my mind as well, that, of course, sometimes you need to do tough decisions and things like that, but you need to want to be respected for the way you did it and also making good habits for everyone, I think. That is healthy and that is long-term and not just short-term. I think that's really well what you said you know what do people say once you've left the room you know another spin I use sometimes to take is like your reputation precedes you before you even walk into the room yeah exactly right you know what is the social currency because it's not based your social currency is not what you think it is it's what everyone else around thinks it is right and if there's alignment between what you believe and what you hear from others then you're good to go but it's skewed maybe you need to self-check and have a little more of that self-awareness you spoke of at the top of this conversation yeah i agree and you can never get too much self-awareness i think it's just positive. Walk around with mirrors all around you, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, Mariana, it's been a blast. I found this, it's such a great conversation that you've underscored a lot of what I feel is important. And to hear from yourself, it's like, okay, maybe I am on the right road. And it's been an eye-opener for me. And I just really appreciated the time and the great conversation. Same, Jason. Every time I speak with you, I don't want to stop. So it's very authentic and that's what I love about everything. So thank you very much for inviting me. Empowering leadership doesn't begin with control. It begins with trust. Mariana reminds us that cultures we create as leaders are shaped not by what we say, but what we model through transparency, humility, and the space we give others to grow. Now, we covered a lot of ground today from building psychological safety and encouraging ownership within teams to leading with resilience by staying anchored in your values. Mariana's perspective on balancing strategic goals with a people-first mindset, well, that offers a much-needed lens for leaders facing change and uncertainty. And as I promised at the start, the most significant insight Mariana shared with us was this. The most impactful leadership happens when we stop trying to have all the answers and instead start asking better questions. That shift from directing to empowering, well, it fosters the kind of culture where people take initiative, feel heard and grow. And that's the foundation of long term resilience and performance. Mariana, thanks again for such an insightful and eye opening conversation. I really do enjoy our conversations We'll have to meet up soon again Well folks, if you are interested in reaching out to Mariana I will leave her contact information in the show notes And thank you for listening And if this conversation has sparked something for you Well, feel free to share it And if you haven't already, please subscribe So you don't miss the next episode And remember, life is about leading from the inside out And until the next time we meet Keep well, keep strong and we'll speak soon. Music.

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